Welcome to the updated Slickdeals redesign beta. Learn more and give us feedback. Or, return to the classic view.

Search in
Join the Slickdeals Special Olympics World Games Fundraising Team Support the World Games
Forum Thread

Podium Renewal *Update 8/25* Please Read

Doctor_Wu July 9, 2006 at 10:47 PM
Update 8/25 Link or post #121

" Mixed bodies can be preserved only if they are brought back, from time to time, to their beginnings, or if they are 'renewed.' "



This place has become too coarse and unruly. Many decent longtime posters have left b/c the invective has become too harsh. The podium is supposed to be a place for conversations and debates... but it has become a place to attack people and troll.

We are going to have some new rules. And they will be enforced. We will begin deleting posts that are uncivil and issuing warnings. But we will not limit ourselves to the elimination of uncivil posts, we will also get rid of provocative thread crapping and trolling. The trolling definition that was agreed upon in October served us well for a time, but it appears to have become outdated. New forms of trolling are now a problem and we will react in kind.

The new rules will not be written down. The old rules are a good starting point... and for new members they are a good guide. The basic thing to remember when you post is - civility. You must remember that the people you are talking to are also humans, with human needs, human fears, human wants, human impulses, human tempers, and human failings... just like you.

Retaliation has become the way of the podium. When users get warned for attacking someone they tend to point fingers and say "they started it". Guess what? We don't care. That grown - generally rational - people need to say who-started-what is borderline absurd. But the internet offers people anonymity and an audience, and that can be a volatile combination. If you are attacked personally please mod alert the post instead of retaliating.

To those thoughtful users who have left b/c of the poor tone of the debates and conversations here, I offer my apology. I don't think we've kept the vision of what this forum should be in mind. But I invite you to return, and am hopeful that you will.

I personally feel I have become too reliant on the rules as a standard by which to judge offenses. The rules are a positive statement on what we think good discourse looks like. But behind the rules lies an ideal that some of us have in mind about what good conversations ought to be, and what a good forum should look like. Suffice it to say that the rules point beyond themselves towards an ideal. And in that sense they are limited, they are only shadows of the ideal. As we've said in the past, the rules do not represent the entire scope of what is and is not permissible.

That said much of the enforcment of the rules will be subjective in nature. There will be people who get a less fair shake than others. I don't see any way around this, except for users to engage in honest and civil discourse.

Some of you who are animated by a love of equality will suggest that this is unfair, or unacceptable, and that reform is good as long as it's a uniform application of the new rules. And that would be nice. However, the users here are creative humans who have found ways around the letter of the uniform set of rules that we have now. Equity between human mods and human users is very difficult to achieve. Looking for equity here is perhaps a misguided pursuit. That we happen to be a place where some semblance of equity exists is a result of prudential consideration, and the conversation that the mods have with each other about what is going on, and about the health of the community at large.

Those of you who cannot hold conversations w/o resorting to personal affronts and blanket statements* probably need to visit another forum.

The podium has had some good discussions over these last 2 years. There have been some great exchanges of ideas. It has also seen bad times before. And we've learned from our mistakes as mods. It may be that the true needs of the podium have been neglected in recent days. But we're going to put that right.



*Labels are a part of politics, and are a part of our world-view no matter how much we may try to resist them. But threads & posts that deal in absolutes such as "All liberals are ______" or "All conservatives think ______" are not productive, and will be viewed as trolling from this point forward.



Feel free to post your reactions/hopes/aspirations/suggestions/fears in this thread.
Add a Comment Sorry, this thread is closed.

436 Comments

1 2 3 4 5

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

GET OFF THE LAWN!!!
575 Reputation
#2
Interesting
Helpful Comment? 0 0
I'm the bus driver
294 Reputation
#3
I'll be first in line to say thank you. I think the Podium has gotten out of hand. Though I haven't been personally attacked, the personal attacks definitely discourage civil discussion.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
Hinata rocks!!
133 Reputation
#4
Woot! I welcome this! Smilie

It's a shame the mods don't participate as much as they used to though.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
#5
This needs to also include when people are attempting to bring in an analogy using other society's conservative or liberal views to reflect on our own (which is almost always the case - why else would we care how other countries do their business).

Stating things like
"The Left"
"The Right"
etc....

Although they could be considered out of the scope in the OP - it is still commonly used to attack the opposing ideology.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
Get ready. Time is short.
110 Reputation
#6
Thank you, Doctor.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
Professor Fish Slapper!
267 Reputation
#7
Applause

Partisan bickering is the lowest form of discussion. It prevents the actual exchange and contemplation of ideas. I have succumbed to it from time to time and regretted it in every single instance. It is about one notch above name calling... and it's not a big notch either. The Podium would be a much better place if such bickering were toned down aggressively. Good job Wu.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
L10: Grand Master
3,294 Reputation
#8
I think people have become too soft and whiny. If you can't take someone opposing you, stay out of the Podium.
Helpful Comment? 0 0

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

Professor Fish Slapper!
267 Reputation
#9
Quote from Mavtech View Post :
I think people have become too soft and whiny. If you can't take someone opposing you, stay out of the Podium.
It has nothing to do with whining about people opposing you. Without an opposing viewpoint, discussions are meaningless. The point is that when every single thread deteriorates into "you're a stupid liberal hippy!" and "you're an uptight conservative redneck!" then it all becomes worthless, wouldn't you say?
Helpful Comment? 0 0
#10
Quote from dalokgawd View Post :
It has nothing to do with whining about people opposing you. Without an opposing viewpoint, discussions are meaningless. The point is that when every single thread deteriorates into "you're a stupid liberal hippy!" and "you're an uptight conservative redneck!" then it all becomes worthless, wouldn't you say?
Guess I have seen very few examples of this. If this is really a problem, couldn't that thread just be locked?

What concerns me is the stated intention to apply subjectivity. While some subjectivity is always involved, when objectivity is not even a goal, I'm concerned that mods may use warnings to suppress dissenting views.

I've already had a post deleted cause a mod did not like my view on a post (not for trolling or personal attack).

If objectivity is discarded as a goal, there needs to be an appeal process.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
L10: Grand Master
3,294 Reputation
#11
Quote from dalokgawd View Post :
It has nothing to do with whining about people opposing you. Without an opposing viewpoint, discussions are meaningless. The point is that when every single thread deteriorates into "you're a stupid liberal hippy!" and "you're an uptight conservative redneck!" then it all becomes worthless, wouldn't you say?
Yes. In my experience here, it comes from opposing someone's view on an issue. Some can't take it. Those are the people who need to stay out of the Podium.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
JFK - Extreme Reason
38 Reputation
#12
Quote from rooobosmith View Post :
What concerns me is the stated intention to apply subjectivity. While some subjectivity is always involved, when objectivity is not even a goal, I'm concerned that mods may use warnings to suppress dissenting views.
I interpret this whole movement to what another poster the other day described as a shift in the Podium. He had said the Podium used to be dominated by conservative voices, and that only lately has it shifted to reflect greater moderate and liberal sentiment.

A cynic would read the tea leaves here and divine that a conservatively biased mod structure wants to "rebalance" the pendulum.

Always read a warning of "subjectivity" as "prepare for some pretty unfair and unbalance regulation."
Helpful Comment? 0 0
#13
Quote from rooobosmith View Post :
What concerns me is the stated intention to apply subjectivity. While some subjectivity is always involved, when objectivity is not even a goal, I'm concerned that mods may use warnings to suppress dissenting views.

I've already had a post deleted cause a mod did not like my view on a post (not for trolling or personal attack).

If objectivity is discarded as a goal, there needs to be an appeal process.
Quote from VoraciousOne View Post :
I interpret this whole movement to what another poster the other day described as a shift in the Podium. He had said the Podium used to be dominated by conservative voices, and that only lately has it shifted to reflect greater moderate and liberal sentiment.

A cynic would read the tea leaves here and divine that a conservatively biased mod structure wants to "rebalance" the pendulum.

Always read a warning of "subjectivity" as "prepare for some pretty unfair and unbalance regulation."
This worries me as well. We'll have to sit back and see if our fears are merited. I hope the mods will try to put their own ideologies aside when deciding what constitutes a troll/attack.

That said, if this is implemented appropriately it sounds like a wonderful idea. There's a certain thread I'm thinking of that reeks of the described behavior, I hope it is not grandfathered in. It'd be quite refreshing to see the topics debated rather than the useless bickering that has been the norm as of late. nod
Helpful Comment? 0 0
facebook = malware
4,859 Reputation
#14
Whoo, me thinks the OP has gone a wee bit over the top here. Determination of trolling will be subjective?! Hmm..., it may address the concerns about hard and fast rules being inadequate, but at least hard and fast rules mean people aren't walking on egg shells every time they post. That alone will be enough to drive people out of the Podium if they end up w/ a couple (unexpected) warnings.

As far as "blanket statements", in describing liberals or conservatives, for example, the term ALL is clearly ridiculous. NOTHING is ALL, but that should be self-evident. That doesn't mean there aren't generalizations that apply to MOST of those identified w/ those groups. Labels *are* useful, they're shorthand, however imperfect. And without shorthand, generalizations, etc., there is no wisdom. I just don't want to see attacks on "blanket statements" devolve into no appropriate use of such language.

As far as partisan bickering, it depends on what that means to you. There's a reason people are dems, repubs, greens, whatever. They associate themselves w/ these labels as shorthand, they reflect common interests and thinking (again, however imperfect).

Frankly, there are other problems w/ the forum I find more troublesome. There are several people here (who shall remain nameless) that seem to find pure delight is posting multiple screeds a day against Repubs or Dems. It's just one dump after another purely on partisan grounds. I know for myself, I hardly respond anymore, it's just gotten ridiculous. Ironically, the more they speak, the less they are heard. IOW, any individual posting may be legitimate, BUT IN THE AGGREGATE, the postings themselves reflect nothing but political partisanship. That's hardly healthy either. It has reached such a fevered pitch at times that the OP will invariably say (paraphrasing a bit), “this is why I hate all Repubs/Dems”. Of course, technically this attacked a group, not an individual (nice circumvention of the rules). But if we’re headed into the land of the subjective, seems to me we might as well include some "warnings" against this type of behavior too, not just the details of individual postings.

How ‘bout this for a change, we only allow ONE posting (original poster) say, every 3 days, once a week, whatever, so we can eliminate this kind of dumping. I see no reason that ONE person needs to be originating post after post after post. That’s not someone seeking real argument/discussion over the topic, it’s sending a message by sheer volume. Perhaps if such limits were imposed, it might force everyone, including the OP, to more carefully consider the issue they wish to be discussed.

But in the end, we're all big boys and girls here. I frankly find much of the bad behavior in the forums useful and illustrative, it speaks for itself. The beauty of the written vs. spoken word is that at least the former can be ignored, and no one can prevent you from being heard. Unless things become so bad it devolves into a food fight 90% of the time, I say, forget about it. No big deal. We’re wasting too much time worrying about a few freaks. The best solution is to IGNORE THEM, like I do. Let them attack me, I really don't care. The best response is to keep arguing your points in a civil manner. To those who continue attacks, they are unreachable anyway. There's nothing I enjoy more than being attacked and yet continuing to argue my points in a civil manner. The spectacle serves its own purposes, it’s purely delicious.

JMTC
Helpful Comment? 0 0
No, I'm not banned.
2,451 Reputation
#15
I think anything that may improve the level of civility here, and hence the breadth of expression and the overall value of the discourse, is worth a try.

I personally feel prompted to become less than cordial myself when I see others doing it.

This sort of thing snowballs, because whoever started it, or baits others, or otherwise makes it worse rarely realizes his role in the avalanche of unproductive negativity that almost always ensues. Even in this thread, we already have an example of provocative behavior.

Folks, let's give this a good solid try.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
Page 1 of 30
1 2 3 4 5
Sorry, this thread is closed.
Add a Comment
 
Slickdeals Price Tracker
Saving money just got easier.
Start Tracking Today
Copyright 1999 - 2015. Slickdeals, LLC. All Rights Reserved. Copyright / DMCA Notice  •  Privacy Policy  •  Terms of Service  •  Acceptable Use Policy (Rules)